Woodstove questions

[fern]

What is the best type of wood stove to purchase? Most things I read say the soapstone stoves are the ultimate. Then cast iron, then steel. Is that accurate? Currently there are 3 soapstone stoves on the market right here in my area. Many of the steel stoves and only occasionally a cast iron stove are on the resale market and tend to disappear quickly. That tells me something but I may be drawing incorrect conclusions. I have only heated with a cast iron stove. Have no experience not even by sight of a soapstone stove. The steel stoves I have looked at often have a window. Is that a good thing? Or is the best thing to purchase one of those wood stoves that are in their own little building away from your home?

[Watchman]

We don't have a free-standing wood stove but do have a cast-iron fireplace insert with double doors and glass viewing plates. Let me tell you that when we have it going (nightly) it warms up the whole upstairs of our home. We have our furnace permanently set at 60 degrees, so it has to go down real low outside for it to kick on. The two bedrooms that are currently occupied have electric radiator (oil-filled) heaters and they do very well. The wood stove saves us a LOT of money. Here in Free Wyoming I can get firewood-cutting permits for the national forests nearby. You can get 10 permits a year (1 cord each) for about $70. The rest of the time we burn pallets which are free.

[fern]

Thanks Watchman! I had not considered a fireplace insert but will look into that. We have a fireplace to put it in and I sure would prefer using it for heat rather than looks. Is there anything in particular that I need to look for in an insert that would make a difference? I will be looking for a used one.

[Toepopper]

Most states have changed the code and you are suppose to install a stainless steel round chimney pipe down the existing terra cotta flu pipes and then pump refractured cement/grout around the new pipe. This is for the fire code. If this pipe retrofit is not required in your state/county then before you purchase an insert, make sure you can buy the hook up components to conect the inserts round chimney, to the square or rectangular terra cotta chimney flu system. You don't want to buy the insert and then discover that you can't hook it up for lack of installation parts. In some houses you can't install an insert unless you break out some bricks and remove the cast iron chimney damper, then rebrick the hole you made. Look before you leap. An insert will not radiate heat as well as a free standing woodstove since heat will only come from the front of the stove and they are not as efficient as a free standing stove.
The most durable woodstove is a steel plate stove. Soapstone is pretty but you will pay a premium for that artistic quality. Cast iron has problems with door hinges and gaskets and in the event that there is a water leak from the roof onto the hot stove, the cast iron will crack and then you have a large lump of scrap metal sitting in your living room, smoking and hissing until the fire goes out. LOPI makes a good steel airtight stove with a heavy cast iron/glass front type of door. We have a BLAZEKING that will accept 2' long pieces of wood. The Blazeking will burn for 40 hours on one loading of wood and this stove heats my entire home. It has twin variable speed fan motors mounted on the back that push hot air from the firebox into the room. It has a glass door so you may look inside to determine how much wood is in the box and the glass doors will radiate 20% more heat into the room. Sometimes they get grungy from combustion gunk but rubbing wood ash on the glass will clean that stuff off. It has a large flat top which can be used to heat water or cook on should the grid go down.
If you can, look for a stove that has the capability to burn wood OR coal. That would be an advantage in the area you live in. Most woodstoves do not burn coal or lignite because those fuels burn too hot and will damage the stove.
Many people are buying pellet stoves for the convenience of using a wood pellet fuel that comes packaged in a bag like rabbit feed. It is much cleaner than wood and way easier to handle, store and obtain. However, most (not all) pellet stoves require power to operate and when the power goes off they quit working and leave you in the cold when you need a heat source the most.

[fern]

Here are two stoves that I have gone to look at. One is a jotul even though the owner calls it something else. The other is the insert that will burn wood and coal. We have a fireplace with a typical floor level hearth and I looked up there...it is solid brick with no lining. The damper appears to be steel and doesn't look too hard to remove (I would probably eat those words). There are no codes here unless you are building new construction.

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/for/2038266781.html

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/for/2043032784.html

Both sellers are negotiable but I don't want to rush if I am heading in a direction that only takes up space sitting in the garage!

[Toepopper]

If thats the case then that damper might be just sitting on a brick ledge and can be removed by lifting one edge up and rotating the unit out at a 45 degree angle, but if there is no flu pipe to connect the insert to you may have to install a chimney pipe to get the insert to draw properly. You can't just slide that puppy in and expect it to function without a proper chimney pipe. It will belch and blow smoke into your living room and the fire won't burn properly. I have never seen a brick chimney without an inner terra cotta flu pipe, bricks will spall from the heat and the constant expansion/contraction from the hot-cold cycle whereas terra cotta has a glazed and fired finish to withstand this abuse.
That first cast iron stove looks too small to heat much more than one room on a cold winters day but that insert might do the trick if installed properly. I like the added flexability of being a multi fuel unit.

[fern]

Well ain't we just the lucky ones...Hester's Daddy built this house! And no liner is there. I can make out every line of the brick although it is smooth, shiny black all the way up through there. According to the neighbors and the color of the walls and ceilings and brick fireplace surround and totally burnt mantle...Hester burned the fireplace every single day even in the late spring and early fall. Any idea what a liner would cost? Would it be better if I paid someone to install the insert since I am treading in dangerous clueless ground? Last question, what if anything do I need to measure on our fireplace and this insert to ensure it will work? Thanks!

[Toepopper]

Oh boy, you have won the lottery!! First thing to look at is if the inside of the chimney, right above the firebox, has a step or jog in it. There might be 2 of them, one for holding the damper and the other is like a venturi in a carbeurator, it makes the warmed air speed up to get around the brick step and this helps cause the chimney to draft so the fireplace doesn't blow smoke into the room. I am not sure but if you install an insert they may have to remove that venturi to hook up a pipe. At the same time you need to look at the firebox itself to determine if it is a Count Rumford firebox to make certain the insert will slide into the box properly. A Rumford firebox will have sloped sides and a sloped back of the firebox to reflect heat into the room and not up the chimney. ( Count Rumford of England designed this in 1563 to save wood) Most inserts will not fit into a Rumford firebox and those firebox bricks may also have to be removed to accept the insert. If you have a rectangular firebox then the insert should fit OK. You will have to measure the height, width and depth of the existing firebox and also measure the insert to guarantee that it will fit in your fireplace. Some will fit in the Rumford box but some are too deep and will protrude out onto the hearth, you will have to measure.
The SS flu pipe kit costs around $380 plus instalation. Some juristictions make you pump refactured grout around the pipe to hold it in place and prevent it from crashing into the chimney while you have a fire burning. I have no idea of costs for instalation, since prices will vary from one coast to another.You can see one at -

chimneysweepsonline.com/stainlessliner.htm

I would have some professional install this insert, you don't want to light your house on fire or be breathing smoke all day. They will build a form in the upper firebox to support the weight of the cement in the chimney and I would imagine that they will have to install rebar stubs into the existing bricks to hold the cement in place. The SS pipe has little ridges on it and is flexible, these ridges hold the pipe in the cement. How they manage to conect the insert to this new chimney pipe is a big question mark for me.

[fern]

I have the square box...36"wide x 36"high x 24"deep. I was looking at the contraption that Hester has in the fireplace though tonight. IT is a mix of cast iron and steel with a blower box that sits outside of the fireplace. Looks like someone make it to fit exactly in this box. It has the thick 1 1/2" tubes in place of the normal grate. It has two cast iron supports that run up the rear wall of the fireplace box and they support a half inch solid piece of cast iron covering the entire top of the box. Then it has another large flue handle that extends out of the box to open and close. You have to reach up in there to open the original flue before you can start a fire. I do not have a clue where she plugged the thing into since there is no outlet anywhere near there other than a triple outlet centered over the firebox on top of the mantle and without any grounds. The switch to operate it is one of those that you turn and is in the built in glass cabinets that flank the fireplace. I have nothing without a ground so I have never tried to stick anything in that outlet to see if it works. I did try to follow the wiring from that point in the basement but there is nothing there so it must go up through the attic and possibly follow the ceiling lights. Do I need power for an insert or do they just radiate heat????

Going back to see the insert on Friday to measure. Will make some calls and see if I can get someone with the correct abilities to install this thing in the meantime. Thanks for your help!

[Toepopper]

fern, what you have described sounds like a "heatalater" system designed to blow hot air back into the room. Have you built a fire in this system yet to guage how much heat it distributes and how much wood it consumes? That is the old school way of doing things but hey, thats the technology they used back then. And yes most inserts employ a fan to exhaust hot air into the room, they do not radiate very well being housed inside the firebox so having an operable fan is a must. You may end up running some 3 wire romex from a new sub panel up to a location near the insert . The job just keeps getting bigger!

[fern]

I have built a fire in it but never used the thing in there. I just open both flues and let er rip! It sucks the heat out of the house so I only use it Christmas morning or an occasional evening. It is easy to start and burns well and fast. Never had a smoke issue.

More wiring? Ugh. Well I am still going to go see the insert one more time and price the install costs and then decide if it is worth the hassle or not. I can run the stupid wire if I have to.

[side_job]

Well yesterday I thought I was doing really good. A buddy of mine got a larger wood stove given to him, so he gave me his. Very heavy 'Bat Cave Stove' company, working unit. I thought 'cool!' this will go well towards my backup heating preps. I got the heavy beast unloaded from the back of his truck (it was all we could do), and set off in my garage for now. I started trying to figure out how to install this beast. It is a 8" flue, and the wife agreed to explore putting it in the corner of our living room on and exterior wall. I thought it would be a quick and easy and probably have a fire lit by this coming weekend.. HA! much to my surprise, a free stove is the CHEAPEST part of the deal for sure! These chimney systems are crazy expensive. In order to take it through the wall, then up the exterior wall and above the roof looks like 400 to 500 just for the kit, without any pipe. The pipe I have found is 160+ per 3 or 4' stick and Im guessing Ill need at least 3 of those... then there is something to set it on other than our wood laminate floor... So it looks like the better part of 1000 before I even begin to look for wood. ugh.

[WillyPete]

$160 per stick?! What kind of pipe are you required to run?

[side_job]

From what I have seen this Dura stuff is double wall, high dollar.... example link
http://www.ventingdirect.com/simpson-du ... th/p656170

They have it at my local home store, it is not as expensive as the listing, but it is close.

[WillyPete]

OK, being stainless and having a thermal blanket between the walls makes the price seem not so bad. Still, $160 a stick when I've purchased B-1 Metalvent for a lot less. Of course, code round here allows the use of B-1, your locale is probably different.

[side_job]

well this is my first experience with stove pipe, so I really dont know what Im doing. I dont know, and really dont care, what the 'code' is around here, I just dont want to burn my house down. I aint planning on asking no gubberment types for permission to do anything. Another thing Im finding is there is a lot more available for 6", but my stove outlet is 8" and I read online that it is a 'no no' to reduce the size down....???

[WillyPete]

Yes, definitely a no-no to reduce pipe size for venting, causes all sorts of nasties to occur. I did a little looking around and found this website that offers different manufacturers products for using woodstoves and the like. This link goes directly to their 8 inch product offerings.

http://www.ventingpipe.com/index.cfm?pa ... 61&F3370=8

I typed B-1 double wall vent pipe into my search engine and found hundreds of sites to peruse including a couple of .pdf files concerning installation techniques.
Without knowing your situation I imagine you'll probably need enough pipe, in various lengths, to get out of the wall or roof and at least three feet above the highest point of your roof 10 feet away from the flue. Plus you'll need some elbows if you go through a wall and a flashing or thimble for where the pipe penetrates and good support to keep the pipe up and steady along with a cap to terminate it.
Fortunately, B-1 double wall only requires a 1 inch gap around the pipe for any penetration so that is helpful, some pipes require several inches and additions of insulation or grouting around the pipe through the penetration.
If you have some acquaintances in the HVAC industry, talk with them about necessities. They will know better what you will need for your locale and where to obtain the best value for your material purchases.

[side_job]

wow, that stuff looks much more reasonable. What is the difference in B-1 and 'type A', which is what the other stuff was? I appreciate all the help, this is my first stab at wood, so this is a big help!

[WillyPete]

Not sure of the difference, I've always used B-1 for gas, oil and wood venting. B-1 is a double wall construction with an air space between the walls similar to double pane glass. That dead air space prevents heat transmission to the outer wall so it can have close tolerances when penetrating walls and roofs. More than once I've put my bare hands on B-1 during operation and suffered no damage. It's a bit warm but not hot at all.
One thing you must remember is never use screws to connect B-1 pipes. Any contact between the walls causes freezing of condensation at that spot and a subsequent loss of venting capability. Plus damage from water running down the pipe into your home.
Most B-1 has a locking collar that snaps into place to firmly attach any pipe joints, no screws necessary except for fastening the supports where they are attached to the structure. Just don't screw the supports to the pipe.

[side_job]

from what I read B1 is for gas and is not recommended for wood or fireplaces. It shows to have a 1200 deg rating. The type a stuff shows a 2100 deg rating. who would have ever thought a free stove would be this difficult to plan for. HA! thanks!

[Toepopper]

You are in for a lot of cursing and jumping up and down. This stove installation is a major undertaking and has to be done correctly, using the proper metalbestos stove pipe or there is a good chance you will light the house on fire. A modern certified woodstove can be placed 6" away from a combustable wall if it has a heat shield on the back of the stove. Older stoves may not have a heat shield and will require a non-combustable hearth both below and behind the stove. Maybe you can look up the stove manufacturers instalation clearances on the web. At least check your county installation requirements on your computer to get some idea of what clearances must be maintained. Why? Because if your house should burn down your homeowners insurance will not pay if they determine that the woodstove was not installed to local code. Stainless steel stovepipe is an expensive commodity but will last a lifetime.
Some stove shops sell a prefabricated hearth system made with an angle iron outer frame holding slate in place and these can be hauled home and set in place over the floor where the stove will sit, as well as the wall behind the stove. Instant hearth. Then you can wrestle the stove into place to figure out where exactly the pipe needs to go between the roof rafters. Here in Oregon you need a 2" clearance between the roof rafters and the O.D. of the stove pipe so if your rafters are on 16" centers, that 8" pipe will just barely make the clearances. Use a plumb bob or a 2x4 with a level to locate where the pipe will go. I had to knock a small hole in the drywall to find the rafters, then cut a round 12 dia hole in the drywall with a pointed drywall hole saw. This is after you cover everything with a plastic tarp and place a drop cloth on the floor to catch the dust and debris. After locating where the hole goes through the roof, I used a sawsall to cut through the plywood and shingles on the roof and this hole had better be in the correct location or you have a big problem. Next you screw in place the roof collar and this is what holds the chimney pipe in place. Its best to place a single piece of chimney pipe into the roof collar and wrestle this in place for proper alignment and clearances before screwing the roof collar in place. Now go inside the house and conect the telescopic chimney connector pipe to the woodstove and slide it up onto the SS metalbestos pipe protruding down from the roof. I have a connector and slip ring to connect the 2 pieces of pipe. Once connected you can check for plumb and push the stove to make sure the pipe is plumb. Now back to the roof. Finish screwing down the collar and tighten the band that holds the chimney pipe, then install the pipe flashing and piece in some shingles to waterproof the hole. They sell individual shingles at Home Depot and I used 6 shingles to tooth in the hole and it has not leaked . They make a special chimney tape to seal the joint where the pipe goes through the flashing so this won't leak. Attach the rest of the ss chimney pipe and top cap and call it a day.
Its best to run the chimney pipe straight up and through the roof. This will allow the pipe to radiate more heat into the room and will allow the stove to draught better. If you must go through the wall, you need to run at least 3' of pipe straight up and then make the turn through the wall, or the stove will blow smoke into the room every time you open the door to put more wood in it. Thats it in a nutshell.